305. - Avery Trufelman

[00:00] All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian, and they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world, and they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. [upbeat music] You know, I know you've been waiting, uh, with bated breath, but I returned to the treadmill today for some interval sprints, and I feel like God. I, I think that I have to give credit to your knees over toes mini sled pull. I think- [laughs] I think maybe one session helped more than anything else I've done. I can't even front. No way. I swear to God, bro. After we, after we did that and played tennis, my ankle has never felt better, which doesn't really make sense, and I'm not a doctor of course. I can't verify these claims. Mm-hmm. I can ... I, I, I'm a feel guy, Jason. You know what I'm saying? That's all, I mean at the end of the day as h- as humans, it's all we've got. As creatures of God, the feel is what ... I mean, you know. Mm-hmm. Even if you are a doctor who went to medical school- Loser ... you can't predict the vibes that are going on- [laughs] Yeah ... inside of your l- [laughs] ... your ligament vibes. So I went to the doctor and I said, "Doc, what's the vibes with my ligament?" [laughs] And he couldn't tell me, so I was like, "Okay, I guess I have to go to a-" Mr. Black, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. The- [laughs] The, the m- the ACL and the ligament, uh- [laughs] ... the vibe has shifted in your- Oh, it shifted ... in your, in your ACL. I mean, when they said I, when they said Them Jeans is the doctor you should go see, I didn't really believe them. It's kinda cr- I mean, it's kinda crazy how ... I mean, 'cause this, the same thing happened to me. I just, I just finished playing tennis a minute ago with, uh, with the homie Nate, who, uh, who was nice enough to write our great story in The New York Times a while ago. Mm-hmm. Did you whip hi- did you whip his ass? We're kind of evenly matched I would say. I probably- Where did you guys, where did you guys play? Glendale? Yeah, just, just my normal courts. He loves it over there, you know. Yeah, we talked about it. When you come from New York where it's a little tougher to get a game- Yeah ... you know, you get spoiled out here in Glendale. But, you know. It's wide open. But the problem in Glendale, the sidewalk is not the world's runway. That is [laughs] yeah, Glendale's a- It's a, there is a give and take. There is a give and take, but, uh, but, uh, let's, let's move f- move on. But I was saying, hey, like of all the year, like I did a year of PT. I did all this shit. I saw special- specialists. I went to places. I bought shit, and a lot of it helped, but like, like you just said, walking, dragging 120 pounds of kettle bells around the park for an hour a few days a week, in two weeks my shit is so good. A lot of people were like, "Oh, y- you made fun of it," and I'm like, "Of course I made fun. I'll continue to make fun of it." That doesn't mean it doesn't work. [laughs] That's, that's two different issues. Yeah, yeah. Right? It still looks ridiculous. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. You know, a grown-ass man strapping some sled and dragging it around the park. Like, yeah, it, it feels good, but it looks ridiculous. Just like, you know, if, if I were shooting up heroin behind a Din Tai Fung at the Americana, yeah, clown me. I'm gonna look dumb. But boy- [laughs] ... boy I'm feeling good. I feel better- I'm feeling really good. I feel better than your fat ass after all those soup dumplings, you know what I mean? [laughs] Well, I, I'm, I'm, I'm just, yeah, I'm just happy that we're both feeling better, uh, mentally and physically of course. And, um, if you're listening to this that means you did purchase the How Long Gone stem player. [laughs] Uh, for, we, we actually, we, you know, we, Kanye had some leftovers. We were able to kinda do a, a blue and green makeup, our own version. Mm-hmm. Those retail for, those retail for unfortunately 300 USD. And we don't, we don't make a dime off of those. No. That's just the cost that- And you- ... you know, to make a custom one. Exactly, and you get, I mean you get one episode of this podcast, so it seems pretty reasonable. [laughs] Like pr- pri- price-wise that's, I mean like you guys give all this money to Patreon and shit. You know, it's, it's no different than the How Long Gone stem player if you really think about it. Yeah, when you give your money to Patreon that's just pissing in the wind, throwing it off into the ether. Mm-hmm. When you have- Mm-hmm ... when you buy a How Long Gone stem player it's a tangible item. Exactly. You hand it down. I, I'm gonna give that to my grandkids. You thought the CD with Jag Jaguar was the end, but we're gonna continue to innovate audio and- [laughs] ... this is the future, Jason. And I, you know, when I talked to Ye he was like, "Bro, you guys gotta do this, fam. Like you gotta do this, fam." And I was a little- Eh ... I was a little on the fence 'cause Neil Young had called me about doing a How Long Gone Pono p- a, a How Long Gone Pono player. [laughs] You know? Mm-hmm. And, and I just don't ... You know, it's, it's tough. It's, it's, it's tough. It's, it's, you know, the, you got these guys calling us. We're kinda in the big leagues now, and you gotta make decisions. And although I disagree with Ye on, um, almost everything and I can't stand his music- Mm-hmm ... I think the stem player when applied to the How Long Gone podcasting medium has a future. Don Da 2, I don't know how well it's gonna work. Yeah. How Long Gone, guaranteed home run. Yeah, as you kind of move up in the ranks, you know, in the business world all it really comes down to is the higher you are the more difficult decisions you have to make. That's what they pay a CEO for. You gotta, someone's gotta fire the CFO, you know? And it, it, this, this is, this is no different. And, you know, you had to make that call and, and say bye bye to Neil and, and that's fine. But I think what Kanye- Mm-hmm ... is doing obviously is being made fun of a lot because today he charged people, you know, a couple, two, $300 for his album and it hasn't dropped yet and he was supposed to announce like a Yeezy Gap Balenciaga thing today, and there's been a- Mm. Mm ... friend of the show, Jacob Gallagher, has been, he's been watching it. It's a clock watch, but every hour- Oh. He's, he's, he's on the front lines of Ye Balenciaga Gap. If, if there, he's- [laughs] ... he's taking a bullet for all of us, so we need to thank him for his service. Yeah. [laughs] Thank you, thank you. But every hour there's a countdown. It's like, you know, in 55 minutes the new shit's gonna drop, and then- Nothing drops ever. [laughs] ... when through when, when it goes into three, when there's three minutes left into overtime like when I'm watching my Liverpool-Manchester game. [laughs] And then it goes, wouldn't you know it goes right back to the, an hour, and I think it's probably still doing that. And it's a tough ... You know, Kanye, he is a genius, but he is bad at, uh, delivering things on time and-You know, that's probably because he is working alone and he doesn't have a person being like, "Bro, you can't just keep doing this forever." But I think that what he's doing with the Stem Player, you know, even though I love Spotify so much- Mm-hmm ... you know, he is disrupting an industry in a, in a unique and innovative way versus just, like, complaining about it on the internet. Well, he's not... Well, he's an idiot. To, if, to turn down $100 million from Apple is just bad business and stupid. He doesn't need $100 million. He's, he has a billion dollars. Yes, you do. Yes. No, no, he doesn't, bro. He's fucking broke. [laughs] Don't believe... No, honestly, don't believe this. Like, he spends too much money. There's no way he has a billion. There's absolutely no way that Kanye has a billion dollars. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yes. There's no way. There's no way. On the... Of course, on paper, it's a bad business move turning down $100 million, but also, you know, he, he sees a greater vision through the glory of our Lord. What's the great- what's the, [laughs] what's the greater vision? The greater vision is, the greater vision is we're in a world where Spotify and Apple and Tidal and all of these... Well, not Tidal, but all these streaming services- Amazon Music, Amazon, Amazon Music, shout out to Bezos ... Amazon Music, all these, they, they, they control the game, and the reason why the, the record industry is so fucked is because of this. And, like, it's all controlled by these labels- Mm-hmm ... and no one's getting paid, and this is- Oh, here we go. Jason's got his third eye open today. Okay, go ahead, Chief. This is, this is, this is- Go off, Chief ... this is half, this is half an eye. This isn't even one eye. This is- Go off, Chief. No, no, look, do your little thing, bro. Do your little thing. Go ahead. This is rudimentary, elementary information that we all know. But- Mm-hmm ... nobody has... Everyone just con- complains about it, but nobody is really kind of innovating, and Kanye- Well, this isn't innova- this isn't innovative. That's what you're getting wrong. It's 1,000% innovative. No, okay, this is- No, it's not ... this is why- This is what Nipsey Hussle did with a mixtape, and it was $100 apiece, and he sold 1,000 of them, you know, or whatever. It's on a bigger scale. It matters more. What's, what's innovative about a mixtape, something that's existed for decades? Kanye invented something from scratch. What did he invent? He invented the Stem Player. This is a- He did not. Bro, this shit looks like a broke boy fucking Beats Pill. He didn't invent this. It's ba- it's, like, shitty technology that was sitting in a factory somewhere unused, and he loaded his album onto it. This is not innovative. The only thing that could be even considered innovative is what he's doing, but it's not because it's basically fucking Bandcamp. Well, you're, that's where you're wrong. This is Bandcamp with Mike Dean- Because you don't under- ... which is, which is fair ... you don't know ... which is cool. I mean, look, Bandcamp with Mike Dean is kinda what the sound we're going for when you think about it. So it's not, it's not like a shot. I just think that it's not innovative. Well, the Stem Player is innovative because it's truly an invention that has not been created before. He worked with a company and built it. Jason. And it's a, it's, it's a tangible item that allows you to break down a song. [laughs] It uses in... it uses technology- Yo, dude ... to break down a song- Who cares? ... into stems so you can listen. Who cares? Like, that's pointless for 100%... Uh, 99.9% of people don't need to hear just the drums on a Kanye West song. It's pointless. It's just something to talk about. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it's pointless. I think that it's a step in the right direction, kind of like how what I was talking about, you know, like Neil Young and Joni Mitchell pulling their shit is not going to change the way that Spotify acts, but it's like the first brick in the wall where, like, you know, uh, 10 years from now- Nothing's gonna change ... something could- This is gonna go away. People are just gonna go to fucking Zippyshare, like you, you and your little DJ bros used to do, and listen to the music. [laughs] Only diehard dorks that have too much money will actually buy the Stem Player. The rest of the people are gonna have to download it illegally, and it's gonna look ugly on their phone, and the artwork may not match up. [laughs] But these are, these are indie sleaze problems for, for the 20, for the year 2022. I, I like it. I, I think it's cool to have this, like, unique looking device that you can carry around in your pocket. It plays music. You could separate it. If you wanna freestyle, you can remove the vocals- [laughs] ... and start spitting over the drums. That part, that part actually great point. Because, because I just like that there's an attempt to innovate where you're offering something unique instead of just complaining or being like, "We should get paid more because record labels suck." You know what's cooler, Jason? You know what's cooler than innovating? Making $100 million for putting out an album on a streaming service where all you have to do is, is send an email. That's it. That's cooler. Look, Kanye, Kanye is, is willing to make the financial sacrifice for the better of our, the better of our future. Uh-huh. And I th- I think that's commendable and- Mm ... admirable, even though he is going through mental challenges at the very moment. [laughs] Challenges. Are you comparing him to Jesus Christ? 'Cause it sounds like you are. Well, Jesus had to crack a few eggs to make an omelet, and things are working out pretty good for the church, but- Good point ... obviously I don't think that it is, the Stem Player is going to change the way we listen to music forever. I don't think it's going to- Mm-hmm ... affect the, uh, the, the stock prices of Apple or Spotify. Mm-hmm. But I think that, you know, I commend anyone who's at least doing something, anything, making an effort to try to do something to fix a problem that everyone complains about instead of just complaining about it. There's no problem, though. That's the issue. There's no problem. I wanna... I, I can listen to whatever music I want to on my phone. Dude, I'm good over here. Well, you, you're- There's no problems over here ... you're a customer, not a artist. So the problem... It's great for the customer, it's bad for the artist. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Oh, I understand. Oh, I understand. So you're, you're siding with the artist a- because that's how you consider yourself, that's how you see yourself? Well, I mean, but you're s- you're, you're a person who podcasts, right? You create art- Uh-huh ... and then it's available on the platforms. Yeah. Well, I, like I said, like I said, buy the How Long Gone Stem Player. [laughs] It's 300. You can freestyle over the Brooks & Dunn instrumental theme song at the, at the train station with your buddies or on the lunch, lunch hour. If you don't like the rhythm guitar- Just, hey, just pull it ... get out of there. Bloop ... just pull it. Uh, all right. Well, look, fuck the Stem Player. Uh, Donda 2 is not going to be good. [laughs] Um, but Mike Dean, if you wanna produce an episode of How Long Gone, you know where to find us. [laughs] Um, and just one little bit of breaking news I heard from a high-place source in the music business yesterday, Oasis is gonna tour, Jason. Oasis is booking shows as we speak. Mm-hmm. And I can't further elaborate on that information or I, or I will be, um-... curbed. [laughs] Uh, next time I go to, next time I go to Manchester. Um, but that is, that is the word on the street. I, I've, I, I can't verify with a second source, but luckily I'm not a journalist, I'm more of an Anna Delvey. [laughs] And, um, so I'm just gonna report this news as true. I don't know what these shows are like. I imagine they're large payday festival-type- Mm-hmm ... beat. I have a lot of, I have a... You told me this earlier this week, and I have a lot of theories on how the tour should go- Mm-hmm ... be rolled out, where it should, you know- Ah ... where the s- where the plays should hap- You know, my, my goal, I wanna do 10 cities total. We start in Japan- [laughs] Okay, yeah ... we e- and we end in Manchester. We do Rockside Fest, and then we just kinda go from there, and we're following them like The Grateful Dead. Is that what you're saying? No, no, no, there's no festivals. These are standalones. We do Japan, and then we do Dodger Stadium. You know, this is- Okay. [laughs] They're, they're selling out the biggest venues in the- I don't think [laughs] I don't think Oasis, I don't think Oasis could do Dodger Stadium. What? I don't, I really don't think they can. That's wild, bro. Guns N' Roses sold it out, like, two, three nights in a row, bro. Yeah. Gun- Guns N' Roses is for dumb people f- and that is a bigger draw than the greatest band on earth. Uh- Who's still relatively niche ... I w- I like both bands. The, the, the lyrical content from Axl Rose- [laughs] Is eq- equally as dumb? [laughs] ... is, is so much more intelligent, thoughtful than Oasis. I mean, I like Oasis- Thoughtful ... but when I remember being a kid- Thoughtful ... listening to Oasis and being like, "These lyrics are for retards." Look, bro ... they're just, like, words that rhyme. They don't mean shit. Listening- I still like it ... I mean, listening to lyrics is absolutely insane as an adult. You only listen to- [laughs] ... only children- Chris, Chris, you're delivering so many hot takes- [laughs] ... that nobody agrees with. Bro. And I like that. I like that you're bucking the system. No, listening to lyrics when you're, like, an emotional teenager is r- is important and part of the development process. Bro, listening to lyrics? [laughs] I mean, you, you read fiction, bro. You can't say that. Being like, "Oh, I love this song, but the lyrics don't do much for me," in 2022 is absolutely crazy. It's absolutely crazy. No, no, no, I'm not saying the lyrics don't do much for me. They're just like, "And then I went for a walk, and I went to the park, and I like to get a cup of tea. And then the tea was too hot, and I think what a night." And- What... [laughs] So Welcome To The Jungle is, is a little more poetic to you? Welcome to the jungle, we've got fun and games. [laughs] We've got everything you want. [laughs] There's people that you find wherever you may need. [laughs] See, the l- Look, you, I'll pull up November Rain right now, bitch. No, November Rain is a classic. I can't even front. Fuck you. Shut up. I, I'm, I'm- Don't backpedal ... I'm, but I'm saying to you that if you care about lyrics in 2022, you're a pussy, and I'm just put- I put that on baby. Okay. And I will say this, you're a, you're, you're a pussy if you care about lyrics in 2022. I don't know what year you were... It was not pussy. Was it, was it '79? '79, '78- If you're an adult ... when you were- If you're an adult, it's pu- I don't mean actual- Okay. Well, if you are adult in 2020 who isn't disturbed by thoughtless, useless, retarded lyrics, then you are a pussy. You're easily pleased by, you know, childlike things. Then you should probably stop listening to Twenty One Savage, bro, [laughs] 'cause it's, it's not that- Twenty One's the only one who's doing it compared to fuck... What am I listening to? Cordae? Oh, I'm lit. [laughs] Cordae I like to be lit. [laughs] Not Cordae. No one should r- We don't bring up Cordae in this podcast. Twenty One has great, great lyrics. I think, I, I think they're good lyrics, but they're dumb. All right. All right. No, November Rain. [laughs] When your fears, and when your fears subside- Mm-hmm ... and shadows still remain. Yeah, that's great. I know that you c- [laughs] I know that you can love me when there's no one left to blame. [laughs] So never mind the darkness. We still can find a way. Nothing lasts forever, even cold November rain. Yeah, that's, that's- Just that, those, those four bars shits on the entirecle, entire lyrical content of any Oasis song. Okay. Look, I mean, that's, you, it's to each their own. You can have Guns N' Roses, one of the dumbest bands to ever exist, that's literally... It's like, it's the musical equi- it's the musical equivalent of a monster truck rally. Maybe. [laughs] Maybe. No, no. You're gonna be the one that saves me. You can't do... You have to, you have to read it, you have to read it like you read the Guns N' Roses. You can't perform it and try to- And when, uh, that was not an excerpt of a song. [laughs] That was the whole song. Those are the only words of the song. I would rather listen to... I will listen to an Oasis song 100 times. I'll listen to almost anything before I listen to Guns N' Roses. Like, if that doesn't- Yeah, I know. I know ... g- put- putting on Guns N' Roses is the equivalent of, like, drinking a Natty Light. I can't do it. [laughs] I can't do it. Even though, even though November Rain is a great... November Rain is an undeniable classic song. Great video. Unbelievable. Mm-hmm. About as good as it can get for that era, but I don't wanna listen to it. It's like Kendrick Lamar. Where, where Oasis peak lyrically is all the roads that lead you there were winding, all the lights that light the way are blinding. Now, that's, that's- But you're telling me, you're telling, I'm- I'm, I'm saying that's good, but I'm saying that's the best they got ... I mean, that's b- that's as good as the Guns N' Roses bars you read. We have to move on. We have to move on. This- [laughs] ... this could, this could last, this could last forever. Oasis versus Guns N' Roses karaoke at Zebulon Friday night. Jason and I are hosting. You guys show up. Chris, nothing lasts forever. [laughs] Even cold November rain. We have a guest today, Avery Trufelman. She's podcast royalty. She, uh, she was a producer and, uh, and contributor to, um, the 99% Invisible podcast- Mm ... for many, many years, which is, you know, one of the, one of the top echelon pods, you know, covering design and architecture and all that shit. Mm-hmm. She was the host of the podcast for The Cut. Mm-hmm. She has a podcast called Nice Try about utopian societies, not unlike the Disney Village or, uh, Kanye's community somewhere in- We live in a utopian society called Los Angeles, California. [laughs] But Avery also has one of the greatest, one of the greatest guest names maybe ever that we've had. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And her, and her parents both, uh, both grew up working for WNYC, so she's kind of radio royalty. She's not unlike TJ, where she's a triple threat EGOT. She's able to host, produce, edit- [laughs] ... upload all by herself. And- All right. Well, all right, all right, Axl. [laughs] Uh, let's, uh, let's, l- let's give, let's give Avery a jingle. Yeah, yeah.All right, let's give Avery a call and never talk about Guns N' Roses on this podcast again. [beeping] This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world, and I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions, but how often? 'Cause we do this podcast three times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week, and I, I, I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe gonna be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they wanna say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at, [laughs] Stateside. Mm-hmm. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch on YouTube. It's three times a week, and, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. [laughs] Give, give it a, give it a listen. Give it a listen. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. Uh, I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and that are just easy but, you know, still put together. I don't wanna look like a slob. That's why I keep go- coming back to Quince. Uh, you know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons, well-made basics but without the luxury markups. Mm. That rare balance where everything feels elevated but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a, a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer, and quality European linen pants and shirts upgrade that look starting at just $34, you know? If you get a nice linen suit with a little T-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/howlong for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, even on a nice holiday. Now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/howlong. That'll get you free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com/howlong. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do all our peers, our, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues. Obviously. Maybe even your parents, if they're freaky. Um, and if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures- I do topless boxing ... you need a website. Exactly, [laughs] a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Chris, well, I'm, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators. I'm putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school, and I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SE- SEO tools so those future graduates can find me, and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote-unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Say, "Hey, I got a new up- you know, 2.3 version upgrade." Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're gonna wanna get in early. And then we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So- Head to squarespace.com/howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code HOWLONG to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. [beeping] We're good to go. Avery, thank you for joining us here on How Long Gone. How are you? Oh, I'm so excited. I'm such a huge fan. This is so funny. Are you really a [laughs] fan? I didn't even know you listened to this. Oh, no, I'm a, I'm a goner all the way, and I have, like, so many questions for you. Well, we'll ask you some questions. You ask us some questions. It'll be like a podcast. We call it a conversation. Mm. [laughs] Um, but, you know, other people call it something different, but that's kinda where we come, come at it. Kings of elevated chat. It's true. We call it a conversation and not anything else because we don't do any work or research beforehand. [laughs] That was my first question. Do you not do any research? No. Sometimes but not, not on the level that you perform your research at, I'm assuming. No, Jason does a classic, uh, five-minutes-before Google search. [laughs] I, since I do most of the booking, I usually am more aware of the, of the guest. Like, either I know their work, or I know them personally. Well, I think we shou- I think we need to clarify for her, Chris, what Chris is saying that oftentimes not only do we not do the research, oftentimes I don't even know who the guest is. [laughs] I've never heard of them. [laughs] So- But Jason reached out to me, so should I be super honored that you reached out to me, Jason? Well, that depends on how cool you think I am. Honored would be maybe going a little [laughs] too far, in my opinion. [laughs] But maybe flattered would work. Obviously, I know who you are th- from podcasting. You, you have a large pedigree, podcast pedigree over the years. A pod-egree, if you will, yes. You have a, you have a pod-egree that is very impressive, um- Well, thank you ... for somebody twice your age, but I don't know why. I, I... You know, the edible is probably hitting. I was on Twitter, and it was like, "Damn, maybe Truffleman would come on the pod." [laughs] And then wouldn't you know it, you said yes. Well, it was really funny. I, my friend just told me about you guys, like, a day or two before you reached out to me, Jason, um, because, like... You know Nick Quah from Vulture? Unfortunately. Oh, he's one of your friends? That's interesting. Well, you know, Wesleyan. Oh, wow, I'm sor- Okay, I'm sorry. Uh- I didn't just say- We run in the same- Oh, you guys, you guys, you guys did drugs in college a couple times, and you call that friendship. I get it. Like, I get it. Okay, so you guys are old Wesleyan pals. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then you learned about... So you learned about our podcast a day or two before I cold DM'd you, and did you learn about that from the Vulture thing that he wrote? No, no, no. He was talking to me as he was in the process of writing it, and he was like, "But there's this one show, and it's, like, two dudes in a room, and it's actually so good, and I don't understand why." And I was so dismissive, but then, like, the way that I would put it is like, you know-4chan is sort of the, the- [clears throat] ... waiting room for the deep internet. [laughs] And you two, to me, were like the 4chan of the two dudes talking podcast. Like, I never understood why people liked it or what the appeal was, but then because Nick was like, "I don't understand it. You have to, like, listen to it and help me understand the alchemy," I still don't understand it. This is li- I, yeah, I don't- Interesting ... I don't understand what's so hard to understand. [laughs] With, this is my whole thing with this. [laughs] It's like I, I don't get it. There's n- that's the- No, I, I get it, Chris. I get it. Because the, the format that we are in, two dudes talking, it's like a format that, like, people make TikTok memes about. It's like- Yeah ... it's so, like, lame, and every single friendship, uh, every group chat is like, "Dude, we should start a podcast." Yeah. "Dude, it's so sick. We'll do a podcast." And like, that's what we do, but for some reason, nobody can figure out exactly why this is not, like, insufferable to listen to. Well, it is for some people, but... My question, though, is I, I don't think I analyze why I like things. Mm. I'm not... I'm just, like, if I... Yeah, I fucking love Third Eye Blind 'cause it's good. I don't need to, like, what does that say about me? You don't experience, like, guilt or- No ... or shame that oth- well, you know, like Nick Quah is like, "I shouldn't like this podcast because I'm such a fucking dork." [laughs] "But for some reason, I guess I just do." And i- instead of just enjoying the magic and mystery of that, you have to figure out the reason why. And if you want the reason to be a bad thing, you'll, you'll, you'll find a bad thing- No, for sure ... or you'll find a bad reason. For sure. I, I, I guess, yeah, I just don't... I have no guilt about what I watch or what I listen to. Like, I just don't care. I, I don't, I don't know if there's... Maybe I'm just, [laughs] maybe I'm just hollow, and there's not much to explore. Maybe instead of podcasters or artists, we're actually magicians. I mean, well, Avery, but do you, do you... I mean, obviously you deal with this shit all the time, but, like, do you, I mean, do you actually listen to podcasts? Uh, you know, the funny thing is that, like, it used to be my favorite thing. Like, I would- Sure ... listen to podcasts coming back from parties and, like, first thing when I woke up, and I totally lost it in the pandemic. Actually, the pandemic was the first time I was like, "Oh my God, what is music? Like, this music thing is so cool." And so I got, I, like, got Spotify in 2020. Smart move. Yeah. It's, uh, just in time. Love those guys. Yeah. Great, fabulous company. We all love Spotify here. [laughs] Hey, you think that, you think that's funny? I don't, okay? I, I, I... These, these, these musicians are coming for my money, and I'm not gonna fucking stand for it. That's why we invented the How Long Gone stem player. You can only listen to our podcast. [laughs] Yeah, we talked about... Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked about it in the intro, but, you know, it's something if you wanted to get in on the ground floor with us, we can do, like, a little trough player. Oh my God. Yeah, we c- yeah, that we... [laughs] I'd be honored. That's a great idea. Listen. That's a great idea. Listen, I'm not, I'm not, like, trying to analyze why your show works because of any guilty feeling. Let it be known. Mm. I have no guilt about being a Gone-er. I just think it's so interesting just to, like, get right into the weeds really quickly. I watched podcasting go from, like, radio to podcasting, where you... in, like, radio, you were going from, like, the hour-long broadcast clock and, like, giving it up. And you assumed everyone was driving, so you had to be, like, you know, interrupt your story in the middle of it to, like, catch everyone up on what just happened, instead of assuming that everyone was, like, with you from the beginning. There are just, like, things about the format that changed. Like, it's been so interesting observing, observing How Long Gone in this clinical way and being like, "Why does this work?" And I think it works because it represents to me... Like, okay, to me the, the difference from, like, radio listening to podcast listening was car to commute. Like, when I worked on 99% Invisible, our whole thing was like, "Oh, people are on a train. They're commuting to work. They have, like, 30 minutes." Mm-hmm. "Let's give them some fun facts. Let's wrap it up before they hit the office." But now I'm, like, listening in my apartment while I wash dishes, and I'm sort of, like, tuning in and out, and your format works so much better for that. Like, I don't wanna have to pay as close attention to everything. So I, I don't know. Honestly, I'm, I'm, like, learning a lot from you guys. I've never listened- Interesting ... to podcasts that are, like, considered smart because I, I don't... It's weird. I, I know exactly what you mean, and I tried all that stuff, and I was like, "This just doesn't... I don't care enough." Like, I only want to listen to dumb shit kind of. Yeah. Well, I don't- Yeah ... I don't think it's dumb shit. I think it's just- [laughs] ... to me it's like, like, um, there's a, a, a thing called NTS. It's an i- internet radio thing, and you can listen to radio shows, like go down and pick, like you're picking a podcast. Or there's a thing called Infinite Mix Tapes where it's a 24-hour looping of just a thing. It's like here's a jazz channel, here's a hip hop channel, whatever it is, and you just hit play, and music just starts playing, and you can dive in and dive out whenever you want. And there's something so freeing about that where you don't have to like, "All right, what am I gonna listen to today? That sounds good. That doesn't sound good." Just to hit, like boom, hit play. Let's see what these fucking guys are talking about. Wait, when it's just, like, the b- is that, like, the equivalent of the YouTube channel that's, like, study beats for focusing? Like, are these just- [laughs] It's funny, it's funny you say that, Avery- [laughs] ... because y- yes, it is, but it's for guys that wore Stone Island two years ago and, um- [laughs] This, yeah, this is lo-fi beats to do, uh, squat and deadlifts to. No, but it's, I mean, NTS, NTS is actually really good, but it's, it's, it's... But the reason people think it's better, J- Jason, correct me if I'm wrong, is because it's, it's created by a human. Ah. Like, it's like a DJ mix, right? It's not, it's not algorithmic in any way. It... But it is, it's, you know, it's kind of like when you're with your partner and you're watching Netflix or HBO Go or whatever, and you're like, "What do you wanna watch?" And you're like... And you don't wanna just go through the like, "I'm in the mood for this. I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna do this." Yeah. That, and you just say like, "Just put on whatever. I don't care. I'm happier to watch something that I don't care about than have to figure out what I'm gonna watch." Choice paralysis. It's true. Choice paralysis, yes. That's the biggest thing we suffer from as a culture. It's true. [laughs] It's true. I think there's problems in Russia, but yeah, that's pretty much the biggest one. I was just saying it's media gout. It's true. I like that a lot. That's good. Thanks. There's a pill for that.No, but I feel like the, the interesting thing is we're almost making a return to, like, Howard Stern. You know? We just want, like... Exactly what you were saying, like, we want to feel like it's being created by a human, and we just want it to go on forever, and we don't wanna have to choose it. And I don't know. It's funny. Like, to me, 'cause I don't think your show is stupid. Like, I think your show is really smart, and I think you're really good at interviewing people, and you get really good tape. Thank you. Yeah. I think part of the appeal is that you don't, like, slow down to explain any of your references at all. [laughs] You, like, make people feel like they're already on the inside. And I don't know. It just goes against everything that I have been trained to do, and it works so well. Like, you are the 100 Gecs to my Glenn Miller Band, and I'm- [laughs] Damn. Okay. I, I think, I, I think that is high praise, but I think Chris- It is. It is. It is ... Chris, Chris enough, Chris and I are sort of enough in the older generation where we like that discoverability thing. We like being 13 and going to a record store and not knowing what any of this music is, and the joy that you get for discovering something yourself, figuring it out yourself. You know, if we make a obscure reference to somebody and they take the time to go look it up- Yes ... and, and research it, then- Yes ... they feel like they have some ownership with that, with that item, with the... But, you know- Yes ... if we explain everything to you, then anyone can do it. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That's why you're magicians. And we have to gatekeep. We have to gatekeep. [laughs] You know, that's the, that's the... That's my number... That's what I'm put on this earth for, is to gatekeep. You gatekeep because you care, yeah. It's tough love. [laughs] It hurts Chris more than it hurts us- Exactly. Exactly ... to keep us from going through that gate. [laughs] Exactly. But I just think that, like, growing up, I... Avery, I don't know how old you are or what your access to the internet was like in the early days, but, like, I, I just think that the discoverability and of actually having to do a little work, like, yeah, I'm a boomer or whatever, but, like, it makes it taste better. You know what I mean? [laughs] It makes it feel better, I think, when you, when you work for it. Mm-hmm. It's like when Jason drags his little, you know, weights around the park, he gets to have a treat after because he earned it. [laughs] You know? And I, I think it's a similar situation, where it's like if you can just Google anything and read everything about it in five minutes, like, you forget it and move on to the next thing. It goes back to the Netflix thing, where it's like you watch things, like this Anna Delvey thing, which was absolutely trash. Ugh. We watched, we watched it, and I've already forgotten what happened. Ugh. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't think about it again because it's, it's so disposable, and that's the fear. It's 12 episodes of a girl getting kicked out of different hotels- [laughs] ... and I could not take my eyes off of it. Did you watch it, Avery? I... Okay. I started it, and then this is... It's so funny. I almost tweeted this today, and then I was like, "It's too mean, so I'll just say it to you." Perfect. I... Right away- [laughs] ... my, like, hackles went up because any time something starts as a process story, it's a red flag that there's no story story. Oh, I see. Okay. So explain what you mean to people. Explain- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... explain... 'Cause that was some insider terminology you're using. Thank you. It's like, uh... Well, should we tell this to them, or should we let them [laughs]... [laughs] Should we let them discover this- I'll put a pause break here so everyone can Google what a process story means. [laughs] Uh, myself included. [laughs] No, I just mean it begins with, like, a reporter, like, on the trail figuring it out, and I think- Oh, yes, yes, yes ... and I, the reason I didn't tweet this is because it's like, is, would be sub-tweeting my entire industry, basically. [laughs] But I'm just like, whenever- [laughs] ... whenever it begins with like, "Oh, I heard a rumor about this man, and then I went to check it out," it's like, yeah, that's how stories are. Yeah, that's how every story starts. [laughs] That's how every story starts. Yeah, that's how the whole thing works. There's always a backstory behind every story, obviously. Like, that's your job, and you, like, reach dead ends, and, like- Yeah ... things don't work out, and you go down these rabbit holes. But if that's the whole story, then, like- What are we doing? What are you doing? That can't be the focus. [laughs] So right away, when it started out with, like, journalism, I was like, "Uh-oh. There's [laughs] there's nothing, there's nothing here." Well, do you think that your, your hackles went up more than the average bear because this is, like, a- [laughs] ... directly personal to your life and career and, and something that you care deeply about? Uh... Whereas I'm watching it and I'm just like, "Oh, these reporters are cool." [laughs] "They're getting a lot of scoops, and they're not g- they're not giving up," is what is, what is- [laughs] ... what I love about them. The best part of the whole show is that the old writers, uh, sit in an area called Scriberia. That's the only funny thing. [laughs] Okay. That's the only funny part of the show. Dude, I was high as hell watching it last night when they said Scriberia. I was like, "Scriberia, that's pretty fucking good." It's pretty good. True. I hear that's true. Oh, it's, like, actually a New York... Excuse me, a Manhattan Magazine. A Manhattan Magazine. It's a, it's a- Okay. I hear it's true, but I can... I, I have to say it's a rumor because I've never... I've technically worked for New York Magazine for two years, and I've never been in the office. And I don't really know anyone. Like, to me, New York Magazine is a Slack channel that I, [laughs] that I visit. [laughs] Yeah. So I don't really- Yeah, no, I understand ... know the culture. But I have heard, I have heard that that's true. Scriberia is really clever, but that... I mean, I just think that that's... I mean, we've talked about it a little bit on the show, but I just think that the, that whole story just isn't good enough. Mm. Like, the whole thing isn't good enough. Like, nothing cool happens. Like- No, no, no. I got, I got some good hotel porn when they went to Morocco. Oh, baby, the tile work. [laughs] Uh, that was great tile work. But I just think that the... I just think that, like, the only thing cool happening now is that the real Anna Delvey is slandering the dorky Vanity Fair reporter on her own Instagram from jail. Aw. [laughs] But, uh, uh, well, the g- Like- I mean- "You dork." [laughs] The good part about, the good part about these shows that don't really matter and are, don't do anything, you're allowed to kind of be the first people to plant the seeds of other things. Like, there's a, a storyline where there's a trans actress who's, like, having sex with a seemingly straight guy, and I was like, that's the... I feel like this is the first time I've seen this on, like, major television. And I was like, "That's c- that's pretty good. It's cool to see that progress," which is sort of like-To bring it back to podcasting, podcasting has sort of become the- [laughs] ... the like starting point of so many of these documentary process style stories when you can't... When Hulu won't buy your fucking doc and- Yeah ... you go down the line of all the networks, next thing you do, "Do we have eight grand? Let's turn it into a podcast." We've just become like IP... We, all of us here, podcasting has just become like, not just, but in many cases it has become like IP cookie looking, and it makes me really sad. IP cookie looking? It makes me feel like- She's right. That sound- that sounds like the name of like a shopkeep owner in the 1800s. [laughs] No, that's a, that's a Hundred Gec song. That's the whole thing. She brought it all the way back around. Either or. [laughs] I mean, she's good. Oh. Okay. IP cookie, so it's turned into IP cookie looking. Oh my God, you guys are so fun. I need a translation for that, please. No, I just feel like they're like, "Okay, one day we wanna make a movie, but we don't have the funds." Exactly, like, "We only have $8,000 right now, so let's make a podcast, and it doesn't really matter if the podcast is good or not, but we've licked this cookie and it's ours, so that we can make the movie of it." Oh, yes, yes, yes. And it makes me feel like the craft that I've grown to care for is really just like a clone that's being raised for an eventual organ harvest. Like, it's not- Mm ... I don't know. There are a lot of people that are vested in, in, in like claiming the story to really do justice to in a different medium that's not necessarily audio. So, so it's like buying up domains of, of all these things in hopes of one day... Yeah. Yeah. Avery, I apologize for buying averytrufelman.eth. Um, but we can talk off pod about how much I'll charge you for that. Chris is a crypto addict. He means nothing personal by that. [laughs] It's not personal. It's just business, sweetheart. It's just business. It's not, it's not business, but this is a tough world, you know? It's a tough world. Well, you've already offered me the Truf channel, so we're... I don't know, we can come to an arrangement. Oh, you think we're even? Okay. No, we, we'll talk about it. [laughs] We'll talk about it. Oh, okay. I see. [laughs] I see, I see. Avery, speaking of we as a podcaster- Yes ... is it, is it still embarrassing to tell people that you're a podcaster? Or now that you can become a millionaire doing it it's less embarrassing? Or were you ever embarrassed by it? Oh my God, and it's only... I think about this all the time. It's only been embarrassing. I feel like it was embarrassing- That's, that's right ... when no one knew what it was, and then there wasn't even like a moment where it was fleetingly cool. It went right from what's that to my mom has one. [laughs] And I don't know if people can still be a... I don't know. I'm sure people can still be a millionaire. I feel like the gold rush is kind of over though. What? No, it's not. Don't say that to us. Do not say that to us. We're, we are currently sifting for gold. Yeah? Well, Avery, what... A- as a pod veteran, what makes you think that this, the door is starting to close? 'Cause it seems to me like it's not. Did you see that article that was like, "Spotify realizes all of their celebrity podcast hosts haven't made a single episode?" [laughs] Yeah. Look, look, Avery, we're not talking about these celebrities coming to steal our job. [laughs] We're talking about- They're taking our jobs [laughs] Us salt of the earth podcasters. Exactly. Well, I mean, as, this, I've dealt with this before, so I know how to operate in this space. But as a person who was a DJ, who was then taken out of commission by your Pauly Ds and your Shaquille O'Neals taking money from my family, I'm used to these fucking Jason Bateman thinking he needs to do a podcast and gets $60 million from Amazon when he's directing five movies at a time. I'm over here in Glendale. [laughs] I don't even have a pool. [laughs] Wait, so do you have any- It's fucking bullshit ... do you have any advice for what do you do when the celebrities come to encroach on your- You just have to do better, you know? It's just like, yes. Oh, fuck. [laughs] All you have to do is do better, like s- many celebrities have podcasts. They... It could be them barfing into a tin can for an hour, and they'll get 30,000 subscribers and listeners and make enough money to feed an entire family. But after a while they'll fall off, they'll stop making episodes. They won't care anymore. They'll be bad at it. But, you know, if you are good enough, the, the cream can rise to the top. It just gets harder and harder. Okay. Can I ask you, can I ask you podcasting questions? Sure. You've been monetizing from the jump. That's right. Uh, you can direct this question at me. I'm kind of, I'm the CEO. Why do you keep Jason around if you, if he doesn't do any of the booking or the editing or the, or the marketing? No, he, no, he do- he does do the editing, and he's really tall. Oh, that's helpful. Which kind of hel- helps. Yeah, it helps. Like, people think he's hot and stuff, so it's kind of like... I'm the face of this audio-based podcast. [laughs] He- Chris does all the work, but he's bald, so what are you gonna do, you know? [laughs] Yeah, I mean- High mediums for the uggos. We keep the hot people out of podcasting. [laughs] This is for us normies. Do you want me to take five? [laughs] No, Jason does all the editing. He's the most important part of this podcast. Oh. That, that was a joke earlier. Oh, that's so cool. Uh, and that's another... Okay, I have questions about editing, but also I have a question about, like, were you in this for the money from the jump? Like, how important was the podcast gold rush to you? I mean, it's important that we need to get in on it, but it's not the reason we started. [laughs] I mean, we- We are now, but at the time we started this podcast as just like a COVID thing- Right ... out of boredom. We, we had experience talking and conversating on air before, and then we're just like, "Let's just call each other on FaceTime and record it three times a week." Yeah, and I hate to s- I hate to say this, but I'm in everything for the money, if I'm being honest, so. Sure. [laughs] I mean, it wasn't the goal, but once things started to look that way, it's like, "All right. Well, let's do it." I mean, I just think it's also like, I think a lot of people approach this now as like a job, but I think until... A- I think that's very recent, you know what I mean? Obviously it's different for you, but I think that, like, people starting podcasts, I don't think there was a, a thought of making money until very recently. Like, that that was like a real possibility for people. So wait, for you, does that mean like, you know, printing your collected interviews into a coffee table book or making a TV show? Like, do you think about this kind of- All of the, all of- ... all the above? Yeah, all of that. Are you kidding me? I mean, yeah, that's... It's, it's just like- How did you know about our recent developments, Avery? [laughs] Yeah, this feels like you're talking to some of our agency friends, and I don't like it one bit. Have you been speaking with Simon & Schuster behind our backs? [laughs] No, I think that... But I just think that, like, what's the point of doing anything if you're not gonna, like, run it for real? I, I just don't, I don't like do things like that. I respect that. Well, uh, and also we're, we're sp- we're speaking at this On Air podcast festival this weekend in New York, but the, the, the subject of it is, like, how to, you know, br- the importance of branding and blah, blah, blah. But when you... Uh, like, we love brands and, and merchandise and, you know, how people market and all that stuff and-Creating this podcast gave us a reason or an excuse to do, you know, what would a live show look like? If we could do a live show or sell merch, what would that look like? Like, so all the thing, you know, if we wanted to advertise with a brand, how would we wanna do it? So you have like a, a jumping off point for all of that instead of like, "I'm just g- I wanna start a T-shirt company, it's gonna be cool," and- [laughs] ... you know, and then it fails. But- Yeah, it gives us, it gives us an avenue to do everything we wanna do, whether that's a TV show, whether that's a book, whether that's a T-shirt, you know, whether it's a tour, whatever it is. But I just think that, like, you know, like you said, it's- it's historically extremely lame. [laughs] And, like, you can't deny that or, or act like that's not true. And then it's like, all right, well, we can approach this, we come from, you know, certain backgrounds that- that inform the way we approach it. You know what I mean? And I think maybe that's the thing that we do a little bit differently, is just, like, when you come from like a punk or hardcore, like, DIY kinda background, this stuff is a little bit hardwired in- in the way that you operate, and, uh, it just, it doesn't, it's like that's just the way you think about it. You don't... You know what I mean? It's, like, a pretty natural approach. That's so interesting. I never made that connection, 'cause, like, r- Roman Mars, who I used to work for, has a very punk, DIY background, and I was like, "Why is he such an expert at being a businessman?" Really? But I never really saw those things as being as hand-in-hand. Podcasting, uh, inherently, h- you know, it started in a time where anyone could do it with- with no, you know, no friction. You just... I could talk into my cellphone and hit upload on Anchor and it's a podcast. And- [laughs] ... since anyone can do it [laughs] you know, it's just like when they first invented all these things that anyone, you know, the guitar was $100 and now everyone starts a band. Most of them are terrible, but you can get a Beatles, you know? And, like, most podcasts are b- are terrible, but there's some random kid in Idaho who just talks into his phone, and then one day he's a millionaire off of it. I think that part's really cool about podcasting as well. I mean, the, as you branch out, you know, and sink your teeth further into your brand, does it make you more or less excited about the actual craft of podcasting itself? Oh, I- I- I like podcasting more now than I ever have, probably. Really? I, I mean, obviously, like, I mean, I was, I was partly kidding about the money thing, but, like, I- I make, I make m- money doing other stuff, you know? This is, this makes money, but it's still really enjoyable. Like, I really look forward to doing it. It doesn't bother me. I don't think, it's not annoying. Like, I don't mind doing it three times a week. It doesn't bother me at all. I never think about it negatively. He doesn't do it because he has to do it, he does it 'cause he likes to do it. Do you not feel the same, Jason? No, no, I absolutely feel the same. I think, you know, ideally, h- you know, hopefully, if our brand continues to grow, and, you know, you make money, you know, turning it into a TV show or merch or whatever, we still know that podcasting, uh, like this show, it can, it- it has to keep getting better and better as we grow. Like- Yeah ... it never, you, you know, you can't rest on your laurels. You can't sit back. Because as somebody who listens to a lot of podcasts, you can kinda see, it's like a stock market of, like, they're on the rise, they're on the- Yeah ... they're on the decline. And if a show is on the decline long enough, the, you know, people stop listening. We've all done that. Yeah, just like, "I used to love this show, and then they turned into a fucking Republican- [laughs] ... dog, you know, like alt-right dog whistler guy," or whatever it could be. Or, like, they just simply got unfunny or they started getting terrible guests or they were lazy with their r- cadence and they lost their mojo, whatever it is. Like, I can't let that happen to our podcast. So it, it's always the thing that we put most of our work into. And we said at the beginning, at the beginning of the year, 'cause we had the tour and we did all this other shit, and it was like, "All right, let's just, like, podcast for a while. Let's just, like- [laughs] ... do the show. Like, let's just get as good-" Back to basics. Uh, yeah, "Let's just get as good as we can at this," 'cause it's fucking, I mean, you know, it's like there's people that suck. [laughs] And when there's people th- when there's people that are bad at, at the job that you both do and they're making more money than you, nothing, nothing gets me going more. [laughs] Nothing gets me going more than Charlamagne Tha God and Andrew Schulz making a f- millions of dollars on that podcast. Mm-hmm. When I, when I'm like, "This isn't good. This isn't funny." Like, it has its moments, of course, but, like, how did this work? And, like, I'll just, it just keeps me going. [laughs] That's what pushes me to be better. Well, when you say better, when you're like, "The show needs to get better," this, this, like, leads back into the initial question of, like, I don't understand why your show works and why I like it so much. When you say, like, make it better, does that mean make it more controversial, full of more, like, witty bon mots? [laughs] It's like, what are you searching for three times a week? No, I mean, I think getting better means it's some, like, 10,000-hour shit. It's some how- how much time you spend in the gym shit. [laughs] It's just, like, you can, like, you can do... It- i- it's just, it's not even about guests, it's not even about listenership, it's about being really good at the conversation, and I think that comes through when you enjoy it. And I think that, like, that's the hardest thing for other people. I think s- when you s- when it starts to feel like a job and it's, like, a thing you gotta show up for- Yeah ... you know, it becomes a different animal, and it doesn't, it's just, it's not, I'm not gonna let that happen. It's just so funny. It's like two wildly different approaches to conversation, because my whole thing is I'm like, "Oh, I gotta do a ton of research to, like, make sure that this conversation gets, like, elevated and I get everything I want." But I feel like you two are talking about it almost like it's a sporting event. [laughs] You have all the tools you need already, and you just need to, like, train and perfect yourself, and I feel like I'm practicing for a recital. Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's, I guess it's like, uh, it's like stand-up comedy versus theater or something like that. Yeah. Like, uh, you're practicing day in, day out, this, you know, to nail it perfectly. And we're, you know, like, we start off bad, and you, eventually you get better at telling your jokes. Like, you might not get funnier, but you just get better at them. And then also you have to always evolve whatever it is you're doing so that you're entertaining yourself, otherwise you're gonna, like Chris said, you're just gonna fall off and, and, and no one's gonna care anymore. But, like, you, since I'm recording this episode, I'm going back, I'm listening to it and editing it, like, if I don't think it's funny, I'm gonna cut it. And-... next time I'm, I have to remind myself to be funnier or whatever it might be. Yeah, and also, but I also think there's, I think both of these approaches are, are right. Absolutely. You know what, you know what I mean? Like, like I think both these approaches are right, and I've, I've listened to many podcasts and did even before this, did one that was more similar to what you're talking about. There's a lot of research, there's a lot of editing. Yeah. It's a, it's a very different approach. I just think it's, it's... There's, there's so much value in both. Mm-hmm. I don't think it's, you know, I don't think it's one versus the other. I think it's like it's just two different approaches. And thinking about like- Two different genres. Yeah, thinking about like a sport is pretty funny, but like I, I don't think you're wrong. Like, I think it's like about getting better, and I don't think that that is... I think that's a practice issue, uh, more than a preparation issue for what we're doing. Maybe, maybe less, uh, less of sports and more like dogs in the dog park, we're the two- [laughs] ... golden retrievers that just wanna play. But also if it gets serious and you wanna talk about when you were raped as a child, we'll go there. [laughs] I just like... No, it's interesting. I just feel like it's, um, hmm, how do I put this? It's not like one is right or wrong, but I think there is such a thing as like popular taste, and I think popular taste... And it's what we were saying before. Like, there's a reason I think people are way more interested in videos that look like they're made on a phone than like professional quality- Totally ... videos. I think people are very invested in this idea of like ease and some sort of- Yeah ... okay, this is, this is my, this is my pet theory that has no basis in anything. [laughs] But I just feel like there's this interest in watching people be... Yeah, people be themselves, like more of the athlete style thing. We love watching preternatural talent that's like scrappy and, you know, and, and very DIY looking. And my pet theory is that this relates to the widespread popularity of ideas like universal basic income, and this idea that like everyone has- Oh, shit ... an inherent specialness to them. Well, I wouldn't say that's true. [laughs] Let's not go that far. [laughs] I'll have to disagree with you there. Well, we, everyone, [laughs] everyone might not, uh, have an inherent specialness, but we can find a way to entertain ourselves- [laughs] ... with somebody despite their, uh, mediocrity. [laughs] I think that's one of the biggest problems in our society is everyone does think they're special. Everyone thinks they can be famous. [laughs] Everyone thinks they're the main character of the story, and it's like that's just not the truth. Y- you know? And I don't- [laughs] I, but I also don't think, I don't think like having conversations with people is some, you know, "Oh, my, I've been touched by the hand of God." Y- you know what I mean? Mm. I think it's just like if you enjoy something and you work at it, you will probably get better at it. I don't know if that means you're gonna be the best, I don't know if it means you're gonna be famous, I don't know if it means you're gonna be rich, but you, you should get better at it if you put the effort into it. Yeah. I guess I just mean like aesthetically I think right now it's more pleasing to hear someone be like brilliant off the cuff than like read from a exquisitely executed script. I think that's like what I want and what people want. Yeah. Are you tight- or are you tightrope walking with or without a net? Which one's more interesting? [laughs] Mm-hmm. Exactly. It's the net. Exactly. Exactly. It's the net. We, we ha- and, and we're tightrope walking without the net, but then I add the net in post. [laughs] So it's win-win. That's what I'm really excited to hear. I normally don't like to listen to myself at all, but I'm totally gonna listen to this episode and see how much you actually edit. Oh, yeah. So you said you had some editing questions. Yeah. Are you an edit slut? 'Cause I am. Oh, yeah, totally. Okay. All right, guys, let's save this for the Patreon- [laughs] ... 'cause no one wants to hear this. So if you guys, you know, if you guys wanna subscribe to Jason's OnlyFans where he talks about editing, you guys can go ahead and just- Speaking of not making money doing podcasting- [laughs] ... that's why we don't have a Patreon. Why not? Just 'cause it's, just 'cause it's, it's gauche? It's lame. 'Cause we did it our way. [laughs] We did it our way. Sinatra voice, it's lame. [laughs] I just think that... We, I mean, we've talked about this so much, but it's just, it's just corny. Yeah. Like, I want as many people to hear this as possible. That's the goal. Yeah. So as soon as you- We want as many ears on this, plus we don't think anyone wants to give us any patronage. Yeah. That's what it says. No one likes us. Yeah, no one likes us enough to give... We're not likable. They like me a lot, but not in a- [laughs] ... this guy needs [redacted address], you know? [laughs] Like, I think like the thought of giving some... I, I, I mean, I don't really pay anybody. I mean, do you pay people to listen to their stuff? Uh... That's what I thought. [laughs] No, I'm just kidding. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, let's bring it back to the exciting world of, uh, sitting in front of the computer alone with headphones on, please. Come on, Chris, let me have this. No, you can, of course. TJ, take it. I mean, do you like, do you cut out, will you cut out my ums? And if I stutter, will you cut out my stutter? How real do you like to keep it? Uh, I used to really cut everything, but now I don't. I, I, I cut out long ums and stutters when I can, but if, if the cut is gonna take more than 10 seconds, I let it fly just because we release three episodes a week, and- Yeah ... I don't have time. Like this episode will be up- uploaded in seven hours. That's bananas. So I assume you don't do any like big structural edits, like the conversation will continue to flow. It's not like you're gonna take part of the middle. Okay. No big structural edits, but I'll, I usually do between one and 400 cuts every episode. Wow. Oh, damn, this guy. Okay, now we're talking numbers. Okay, I didn't know it was like a- Now we're talking numbers ... I didn't know it was like a batting average type shit in here. But, uh [laughs]- You guys- ... but I like to... But I've, I've gone, I, I do it as natural as I can without it annoying me too much. That's so cool. I think that's also part of the, part of the reason why your show works, like you can, you can hear the care. Thank you. Yeah, no, you absolutely can. And also, I, I also believe that there's like a, a certain cadence that conversations happen at where it becomes sort of hypnotic. Mm. And that's like a sweet spot that I try to get into where you look and you're like, "Damn, an hour has gone by already?" Yeah. My anti-drug. [laughs] Yeah. D- DJ Them Jeans is not putting, you know, the drums behind the Rihanna song now. He's just merely cutting out my ums. [laughs] So it's, it's- Like a s- like a stem player. [laughs] I could drop those drums out whenever you want. Exactly. Good point. Yeah. Avery, speaking of, uh, Kanye West, you have, uh, you have a podcast, it's called Nice Try, about utopian communities. We've been talking a lot about how like Disney has been making these communities, Kanye West has been thinking about making these utopian societies. Um, all of them obviously sound very scary and are red flag scenarios, but-After doing your research on these utopian communities, are there any that you were actually like, "Damn, I could live here"? I mean, I feel like they all get to a point where... I mean, that's- that's why utopias are such a beautiful narrative arc, right? 'Cause there gets a moment where they're like, "Hey, this seems pretty ga- pretty great." They descend downhill precipitously. So it's weird. I feel like in all the utopias I looked at, there was, like, a fleeting moment where they seemed like they were really onto something, and really ahead of their time, and- Mm-hmm ... very beautiful. So I don't know. But listen, I, like, the- the show is about failed utopian communities, which is obviously so much more fun to look at places that crash and burn. Uh, and so we can be like, "Thank God that we're stuck in our, you know, capitalist, hedonic treadmill, and don't wanna try for something better." Hell yeah. I think utopias are possible, and I'm pretty sure smaller ones exist out there, and their stories are just not as good. And it's just, like, their dramas are about the chore wheel, and- [laughs] ... like, not- not anything thrilling and exciting. [laughs] So honestly, like, I'm all for it. I'm all for these utopian ideas. Why not? The only, the only one I'm interested in is Scientology, if I'm being honest with you. Wait, why Scientology? That's, like, for-profit sci-fi. Have you met Chris? Exactly. Oh, yeah. The, the for-profit part he likes. The sci-fi not so much. I like the... Yeah, I don- I don't like sci-fi, but I like that there's, like, a buy-in. [laughs] You know, I like that you gotta put s- you gotta have some skin in the game to join the- the society. You can't just- [laughs] You can't just show up. You have to be pre-approved for- Yeah, you, yeah. You can't go to... It's not like going to church and just, and you, they accept you. You know, they're like, "All right. Well, let's see. So y- you know, your last couple pictures didn't do that great. Uh, but, you know, I did see that you know Tom and Will, and that does help." So it's like if Soho House had a jail. That's what Scientology is. [laughs] Exactly. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, Scientology is if Soho House had a jail. That's exactly what it is. No, I mean, I'm not actually fa... I mean, I think being fascinated with Scientology is very, like, 2014. Totally. You know? B- but I do think it's like, when you live in LA and it's like actually you see it all the time, it's- it's strange that it- it felt like it was... You know, there was a time where, you know, there's the book, and then there's the show, and there's the show, and then there's the book about how it's so crazy. Nothing happens. Nothing affects it- [laughs] ... at all. No, but this is the real documentary. This guy's from the BBC. Yeah, it's literally like that every time. It's like, "Oh my God, did you see this?" And it's like, guys, this shit, nothing matters. Like, nothing matters. They're completely unaffected by it, much like the Christian Church- Yeah ... which is, you know- Yeah, yeah ... pretty impressive when you think about it. Like, you think there are still people in the basement being tortured. Hell yeah. 100%. Yeah, who cares? Tom Cruise is pissing on them right now. [laughs] Doing one of those weird laughs. [laughs] The fact that it's been, like, in the public eye for this long, and so many people think they've, like, done the definitive gotcha story or book or movie, and nothing matters- It's like Bigfoot That's so upsetting. That's so, so upsetting. Wait, Bigfoot? Bigfoot must be stopped. [laughs] No, no, no. I mean s- [laughs] We've been trying to take him down. Same with old Nessie over there in Loch Ness. [laughs] You know? We've seen a lot of blurry, we've seen blurry photos, but, you know, where's the proof, sis? I, I think it's more concerning that celebrities embrace Christianity. Like, Scientology is cooler. Mm. I guess Scientology is cooler than Christianity. [laughs] It's the lesser of two evils. Avery, are you familiar with Mosaic? Uh, no. No, no. It's like church for people who know what matcha is. Yeah, [laughs] exactly. [laughs] So I drove by- And are, like, sort of okay with gay people. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, they wear, they wear Fear of God slides to worship. That's the kind of vibe it is. [laughs] But I drove by, I drove by the other day, and I saw that they had, like, a gaggle of- of SoulCycle style spin bikes. No. That's right. So I'm like, these motherfuckers are coming for exercise? That's where I draw the line. Taking a page out of Righteous Gemstones though, Chris, the God Squad. It's very Righteous Gemstones, but I just find that that, to me, is more, is much more offensive than, like, a proper secretive cult. [laughs] Exercise bikes? Mm-hmm. But I feel like exercise bikes were already coming for the church. Like, I'm glad that religion reclaimed them. Oh. You know? They're like, "Back from SoulCycle." SoulCycle became your church, and then- [laughs] ... and then the, then Christianity was like, "We need to acquire them," just like how Spotify- Yeah ... might need, needs to acquire- [laughs] ... Chartable. You know? Like, we'll, that'll pay off in the future. Mm-hmm. Very interesting. I like that. Mm-hmm. Mm, mm. We, we started this podcast only virtually. We've never done a podcast IRL- Whoa ... um, with a guest. We've never interviewed anybody in person. And I know that you prefer IRL interviews, had to go virtual. How much do you miss the IRL game, or do you, you know, are you starting to get used to going virtual only? Welcome to the dark side. Wow. Wait, Jason, was that research? That's so sweet. Thank you so much. [laughs] I really appreciate that question. You're very welcome. Don't gas him up. I'd rather hear about Park Slope mask rules, but go ahead. No, I- I- I don't know. I miss, I miss being in person because I feel like people, it's harder to kick you out when you're in someone's apartment. [laughs] So I could like, if I wasn't getting what I wanted from the interview, I could just sort of stay longer. Like a creepy guy trying to get his- [laughs] ... ding-dong sucked? One could say that. It's true. I'm just gonna ride this out. [laughs] You can't kick me out, baby. I'm here now. Yeah. You invited me up. So yeah, you can, I can just hit, you can just hit leave chat on the Zoom and you're gone forever. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But if you're on my living room, I gotta be like, "Ugh." Yeah. Okay. Do you ever... But I mean, the thing that I like about going virtual versus IRL is you could say things to somebody that you might not necessarily feel comfortable with saying face to face. You coward. [laughs] Yeah. Jason's, Jason, like that ding-dong joke Jason just made, he never would've said that shit to you if we were in the room together. Oh, that's so sweet. [laughs] All the bluster. Yeah, I mean, actually, Chris, that's a p- that's a prime, prime example. I'm not worried about somebody being, like, offended by something I say or being upset. I'm more, I'm more worried that that'll then be more work. Like, it'll be harder for me to recover from- Mm ... uh, a risky comment. Mm-hmm.Uh, IRL versus virtual. Like, you could, you could lose the room much longer IRL versus virtually. I c- where I can just ask you another question and in 10 seconds we forgot about a failed attempt at making a joke or something. You know, it's so funny. This is an... I, I don't really think about that because I chop my interviews into such little smithereens. Mm. Um, so I don't even- [laughs] Like, the way you are thinking of, like, the flow of the conversation as a cohesive, uh, Gesamtkunstwerk is not how I think of, like, my, my in-person interactions. Honestly, I just like to... Because I mostly interview professors and historians. Professor Binny Blanco. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] You, you know how it is. Like, it's, it's so much in the third person. We've interviewed some of the greatest minds of our generation. [laughs] Yeah. I, we, we can relate, for sure. Sometimes our guests ask us how we hold our penis when we pee and all kinds of- [laughs] ... professorial- Yeah ... questioning. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay. So, so have there been any parts about doing your job virtually that you prefer, then, over IRL? It's cheaper. Uh- [laughs] ... I don't know. Like, I'm interviewing someone in Japan soon. It's like, this is so awesome. I don't have to, like, hire someone... I don't know. I don't have to go to Japan. And also, now that everyone's so used to the Zoom, the shitty Zoom sound- Yeah ... you know, I, I don't have to worry so much about quality. So that's also nice in a sort of DIY way. Like, being able to see someone is helpful for certain people, I think. Yeah, yeah. I mean, do you think your guests prefer... I, I wish I could see you. It's kind of weird that I'm not, that I can't see you. It's strange. Well, it's a power move on our part. No, uh, no, we- [laughs] Some people really won't do it. Like, like, are like, "No," but we think that there's, the, the power of the camera off, uh, is, is puts some people at ease. Maybe not you 'cause you're a pro, but, like, I think if people feel like they have to, like, get dressed and get ready for it, it makes it more of a to-do than it actually is. Yeah, we like to make it, a, as low of a lift as possible, where- Ah ... you don't have to be, you know, full glam squad hair and makeup to do this podcast that's audio only. But also, uh, I think a, a big part of it is the how you're listening to something. And when you're, when it's a live conversation with, like, you know, a few people in the same room all talking to each other, I think it's better to consume that as an audience member of it happening live. Mm. And if you're gonna be listening to it while you're washing the dishes or staring out your window or whatever- [laughs] ... you know, I almost prefer to record this conversation while I'm staring out the window, you know? Ah. Yes, yes, yes. You go method. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, he's very seri- he's a very serious actor. I, I, I hate listening to a live podcast in front of a studio audience. It's just- Why? It's... I don't know. It seems like, um... It's like having sex with a condom on. It's like there's a, there's a barrier there where, like, I wish I was actually in the room so much that I don't really- Aw ... care to listen to it. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Are you directly attacking Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me? Like, who else could you possibly be talking about? There... I mean, it happens a lot. It happens, I mean, not a lot, lot, but, like, comedians will record live podcasts in front of an audience or, like- Oh, sure, sure, sure. Comedy. Do you watch anything on YouTube, Avery? Anything? [laughs] Like, no, pod- [laughs] I mean, do you, do you watch podcasts ever, or do you only listen? No, I don't do that. Well, this is... Now I feel so embarrassed. I was like, "There's only Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me. There are no other podcasts." Like, my scope is so- [laughs] Uh, I'm, I have a hard time branching out from, like, the, the world I know. Even though you're younger than us, you're much older than us. How old are you guys? I'm 41. 39. I feel like our age difference is negligible. [laughs] It really is. Okay. Well, you still feel like a young grandma to me. [laughs] Uh, thanks. Um- But in, like, a cool way. Not my... Not a grandma, my grandma. Oh. [laughs] Yeah. I see. That's a big difference. That's a big difference. Is his grandma cool? Um, she's no longer with us. Oh, I'm sorry. [laughs] I've actually built with her before, and she is quite cool. She had a great way of sitting, is, is one of my major takeaways. [laughs] Like, really f- Ooh ... folded up in a way that was, that was aspirational and also visually cool. I learned from the best. That sounds very elegant. I too like to fold. I just went to see the, uh, Andy Warhol exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum the other day, which was actually really interesting. I have to say, Chris, it made, like, Catholicism look very chic, because that guy went to church every Sunday, and it was all about the role of religion in his life. And I only bring this up because it turns out he told everyone he was 10 years older than he was all the time, so that people would be like, "Oh my God, you look great." Psh. Like, why be- Yeah ... a tired 39-year-old when you could be a hot 50-year-old? Damn, that is, that is good. I kind of want to do that. 'Cause it takes a lot of balls, and no one suspects you're gonna go 10 years over. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That Warhol. A visionary. Posthumously, still killing it. [laughs] Uh, well, Avery, we gotta wrap things up here in a minute. We gotta hard out. Do you have any more Truffleman questions for us as we're, as we begin our descent into LAX? Oh my God, you're hard out. Um, oh my God. I want... I, I said this, I said this in the intro, but you have the best name of anyone we've ever had on this podcast. I want to give you the award o- to your face. [laughs] Avery what's- I'm so flattered ... if you don't mind, I don't wanna peel the curtain back too much, but what's the middle name looking like? Uh, it's a very middle name-y middle name. It's just Claire. Oh, no, but I like that. It brings you back down to earth. Oh. Yeah. Well, thank you. It really rolls off the tongue. It's really nice. Oh, thank you so much. I really like it. You know, the funny thing about my, my name is, like, it was genuinely a typo in Ellis Island. Like, there are no other Trufflemans except there's, like, my tiny family, which is, you know, four people here in New York, and then when we all joined social media, we started seeing all these other Trufflemans, and they're all in Buenos Aires, and it's spelled the same way. Oh. And we were just like, "What the fuck?" Like, who went and had some kids in Buenos Aires? Or, like- Who be fucking in Buenos Aires? Who, what's going on? So I don't know. One day I want to meet them, and we, like, tried to communicate before Google Translate was very good, so we didn't get very far. But, like, I see them out there. Their names are, like, Herman and Hildy. Like, I see them. Okay, so when does season one of Finding Truffleman come out? Because this is your next podcast. [laughs] Fund me. Give me your... Teach me how to brand. Fund me. Like, please- Fund me ... send $20 to my Patreon, please. [laughs] We'll go over financials off-pod, of course, but- Yeah, we can talk- Okay. [laughs] We can talk financials when we go away. Avery, thank you so much for chatting with us. We really appreciate you taking the time, and, um, uh, people can find you on social media. And do you have any, like, new things you wanna plug coming out? No, I, I have no idea what's next. Uh, good luck with your 400 edits. Thank you so much, you two. I don't know if I told you, but I'm seeking sanctuary. You'll never guess the things that I do. I've had the devil round for two. Don't you know that I hid beside you? Can't you see that I can't last? When I saw you in my rear view, you could've stopped me in my tracks. I'll be there for you when you want me to. I'll stand by your side like I always do. In the dead of night, it'll be all right. 'Cause I'll be there for you when you want me to. [upbeat music]